What Dads Really Think About Porn
This article is Part 3 of 5 for the series What Dads Really Think - Moms Want to Know.
Shannon from Whiskey In My Sippy Cup. wants to know what dads really think about pornography.
She elaborates why she and other Moms want to know:
Does everyone have a nice, tall drink in front of them? Has everyone emailed there mom and said, “You know what? Go ahead and skip the Internet today?” Great! I have a question I have been dying to ask someone….
What’s the deal with the porn, yo?
Here’s my problem: I get it that if you’re not getting any at home, that if there’s a new baby, or a wife who just can’t right now, then sure, I won’t argue the needs of those situations. A guy’s gotta do what a guy’s gotta do. But when you’re in a perfectly fine, functional relationship where everyone is willing and able, then I’m going to raise an eyebrow at the need for something more.
It’s around; it’s accessible; it’s easy; and, it’s brainless. But is buying or enjoying pornography cheating? Or is it a compulsion? Your Right As A Man? My husband and I, for all our faults, get along gorgeously and almost never fight. I’ll admit, though, to standing in front of the computer monitor with a hammer in one hand and the credit card statement in the other, sizing up whether or not I could actually get away with demolishing that sucker. We have had Showdown Smackdowns about this topic, and we’ve kinda come to a Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell agreement around here.
I would really like to know, though, from someone who isn’t married to me, what gives? Seriously, what’s the deal with the porn, yo?
Here’s what the Dads think about PORN:
Jim from The Busy Dad Blog. Um… Heh… I hope my mom is not reading this. I hope no one connected to me by blood or marriage is reading this. Except for my wife. She knows all this. If I didn’t tell her, she would have found out anyway. At least I can get honesty points this way!
Second grade. I was at my friend Derek’s house. We were in his parents’ bedroom looking for something. I don’t remember what it was. All I remember was we happened to open his dad’s nightstand. And we found a magazine. I still need to write Hugh Hefner to thank him for recalibrating my life’s priorities on that fateful day. For the next few months, we spent way too much time in that room (we’d tell his mom that we had to go in there to hold a meeting to discuss Mindy, their cat. 8 year-olds are sooo wily!), just staring in awe at the pictures, not really knowing what to do with them, yet just knowing that we really liked them.
Here were are, 30 years later and my awe still hasn’t subsided. Adult entertainment has seen me through thick and thin. Through good times and bad. Whether it was live at a nudie bar letting me and my boyz be guys, or virtual on a computer screen showcasing the wonder of internet technology, it’s tough to let an old friend go.
But when you have kids, you kind of have to. You need to hide that stuff, and hide it well. Like in a hole in your neighbor’s yard or something. And I say this solely because you don’t want the kids to inadvertently pack that DVD on your next drive to Legoland. Otherwise, you’ll spend a lot more time explaining about how pieces fit together than you anticipated.
Porn in the presence of a wife? I don’t consider that cheating. If another human being is not actively involved, it is not cheating. I wouldn’t even consider that chick from Terminator 3 cheating. She’s made of synthetics, screws and bolts (I could so make an LA joke here, but I will refrain). So porn is totally fine in my book, just as long as you’re not neglecting her for it. I view porn as the 3rd string quarterback. He may not be your star player, but he’ll always be ready and willing to throw the ball. And sometimes that’s all you need.
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Joe from Joeprah.com. So, porn huh? Ok, well there is a lot to say on the topic of porn. To start things off, I remember something my 10th grade “religious ed/relationships” teacher told our class and it always stuck with me. Some goof ball kid (not me somehow) asked about porn within a relationship, and she responded saying, “anything that promotes a couples’ relationship that both people agree on is healthy for a relationship.” She went on to say, “however, it must be something that you both agree on.” I have since subscribed to that philosophy and I think that should be applied to this topic.
I mean, I could careless what works for other people. If Tom and Sally like to dress-up like hobbits and hit each other with waffle ball bats to excite each other, well…more power to them! As long as they are happy is what is important. So, this is my way of saying that what Joeprah does with his wife behind closed doors is fine, as long as it is mutually agreed upon.
Does this mean that we condemn or enjoy Porn? Out of respect for my wife I would like to keep our personal relationship private, but I think spicing up a relationship every once in a while can be a good thing - no matter what props you utilize, outfits you put on or stuff you look watch or look at.
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Ed from Zoe’s Dad. I don’t do pornography….anymore. My wife won’t let me! I kid. Really! This was a pretty easy topic for me because it is essentially a non-issue. Never got into it. Oh, I’ve seen it, don’t get me wrong. I’m no saint. I’m pretty sure I may have lingered while channel surfing a time or two, but never really long enough to figure out the plot line or the motivations for the lead characters. There is a plot and motivation factor, right? And I still look forward to the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue each winter, as I have for the past thirty years. That’s porn isn’t it?
Anyway. I don’t see it as morally wrong or objectionable and have no problems with those who have a video library that would rival my own collection of Disney Classics. I wish I could take a moral high ground here and say that it all changed when I had children and now that I’m a parent I see each woman in these films as someone’s daughter. But I’d be lying. Porn just never appealed to me.
I remember the first strip club I ever entered. I told you I’m no saint. And yes, by phrasing it the first implies that there were others. There were. Anywho—the first strip club I ever entered was on Bourbon Street in New Orleans. The place stunk, literally. It reeked of rotting fish and every surface in the club looked sticky. I say looked because I could not bring myself to touch anything. There was a ten dollar minimum on drinks. I ordered mine and let it sit, refusing to touch it. One of the dancers approached me after her set and began the spiel. You know, about the extra private dances all the things she could do for you. All I could say was, “I got this for you. Enjoy.” And I left the club. Left my buddies without a ride. Could not get away fast enough. No. Porn just never really appealed to me.
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Chuck from D is for Dad. I was a bit surprised when this question was among the few to respond to, but then again part of me thinks it needs to be discussed, so here goes. In my role as Network administrator (my day job), I see plenty of the filth that people are browsing when they should be working. In church groups, I hear about the marriages that have been destroyed because porn somehow entered into the equation. I’m of the opinion that porn has absolutely no place in a marriage or relationship, not in a healthy one anyway. I’ve heard the arguments people make about the fantasy side of the conversation and how introducing it into a relationship can sometimes save it. I think this is absolute bunk. If fantasy is what you want then fantasize about your partner, in your own mind or with your partner. If you aren’t capable of doing this, then there are other intimacy issues that need resolving and porn isn’t part of the solution.
Porn can become an addiction just like anything else. It may seem innocent enough. The Playboy subscription. The late night pay per view rentals. All of these things take your mind places it ought not be, unhealthy places. This just isn’t a fun topic at all, and I can’t make it so. Not even a little bit. I’ve seen too many lives destroyed. I’m not saying it isn’t good to have erotic thoughts, not at all, but have them about the one you love. That’s all I’m saying.
Porn doesn’t care about you one bit. The industry, like everything else, thrives on money and power. The difference to me is porn wants to see you fail. It wants to see you in that dark place looking for some kind of stolen intimacy and entirely dependent upon it. Stay away. For the sake of your family, stay away.
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Jeremy from Discovering Dad. I’m not really into porn, but I liked the movie Boogie Nights. I’ve seen Ron Jeremy on several reality TV shows too, and man, if only I could look more like him…you know, all hairy, round and…well, endowed. I gotta be honest with ya, it ain’t exactly a confidence boost to see the likes of RJ and Dirk Diggler, if you know what I mean!?!
I remember the first time I saw a porno tape. It was seventh grade, and I was at a friends house in the neighborhood. He popped that sucker in the VCR, and stuff started flying all over the place. They never showed the guys’ faces for more than a few seconds though, and this just struck me as weird and impersonal. As I grew older, and I heard arguments about pornography and how it objectifies women, I always thought back to that first impression and wondered, isn’t it the same for the men involved?
Pornography is a distraction to me, and maybe that’s why some people like it. Maybe it helps couples forget about being mad or upset with each other, and instead they can let go and interact in a more positive way. For me, though, I don’t want to think about something or someone else during sex; I want to think about and be with my wife. Having a bunch of other thoughts or images running through my mind during the most intimate moments we have together, well, it doesn’t work for me. It makes it feel less special. And, eventually, I worry that it would make our love life forgettable, expendable or unnecessary. Personally, I just don’t want to go down that road.
Having said that, I can remember many times watching Real Sex on HBO with my wife and both of us being enthralled with the stories. We watched it together, and it always felt somewhat voyeuristic rather than sexual to me. It wasn’t like the show ignited the flames or anything, instead it sparked curiosity and conversation about the crazy stuff people do in real life and then agree to have shown on television! What do you think these peoples’ kids think about their parents going to sex camp and having it broadcast worldwide? It’s crazy!
Most kids probably start out with porn because they are curious too. I can understand and identify with those feelings. My fear is that indulging this curiosity and allowing it to become an obsession negatively impacts young peoples’ abilities to develop normal, healthy relationships. They think porn star sex is the only kind of sex, and they end up missing out on the more beautiful elements of intimacy. It’s kind of like that first video I ever saw, they don’t see the peoples’ faces - only body parts flying around with a lot of moaning and screaming.
Pornography is sold as a stimulant, but ultimately, I feel like it only serves to dull the senses. Whether someone enjoys porn or not, the important thing is to be present and engaged in your marriage or relationship - the time you spend fantasizing about someone else would be much better spent getting to know something new about your partner.
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Alright Moms, Dads, wives, husbands, women and men, readers in general - it’s time for you to speak. What are your thoughts about pornography? What did you learn from perspectives the panel shared? What are the things that you do in your relationship? Don’t be shy or humble - please share your communication tips and insights!
Share your thoughts about this topic in the comments. Feel free to relate your comments back to the panel’s insights, or ask a question of them - they don’t have any problem telling the truth as they see it! You can also reply to comments made by others and get a real conversation going around this important topic.
Part 4 of the series continues tomorrow with the panel sharing What Dads Think About Bodies after Babies.
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Comment by Mr Lady on 2 July 2008:
Wow, good answers, guys. Thanks. My stomach has been in knots over this one, so much that I emailed Jeremy asking to change my question three nights ago. But you know what? You guys REALLY answered it. And I thank you all for that.
PS: Jer, I’m not ignoring the rest of the series, I’ve just had a couple of butt-kickin’ days. I’ll go get all snarky in the other comments in the morning.
Mr Ladys latest discovery was..God, I Hope This Leads to Some Bikini Mud Wrestling
Comment by BusyDad on 2 July 2008:
heh… just kidding?
Is it hot in here?
Some weather we’re having! Let’s talk about weather, shall we?
Am I being Punk’d?
I seriously do not know any guy who doesn’t like porn. Am I just friends with degenerates??
this ought to be fun… buckle up BD.
BusyDads latest discovery was..Rollin’ on tha Eastside… the Far Eastside
Comment by Jeremy on 2 July 2008:
It’s gettin’ hot in here, so take off all…you crack me up BD! You and your degenerate friends! And since we’re all friends, I guess we’re all degenerates too
Comment by Chuck on 2 July 2008:
Another round of crazy interesting answers.
I’m going to grab my Puritan garb and some cows milk and watch this thing unfold.
Chucks latest discovery was..Those things that shape you
Comment by Secret Agent Mama on 2 July 2008:
I’ve been waiting to see how this one would go. Wawaweewa! (Yes, that’s a Borat reference, thankyouverymuch.)
Let me tell you a story:
There was this girl, about 11 years old. One summer’s day, she was looking for money to go to the pizzeria, one day, and climbed upon a chair to look and see if her mom had accidentally left some dollars at the top of the china cabinet. (Hey, she was 11) What she founds was something totally different. She found Hustlers, Playboys, and some other magazines. Looking through them she saw things that she’d never-ever imagined, however these things made her feel different inside. She liked that feeling and she went with it.
A few months down the road she told her buddy, Jason, about it. He then told Mike, who told Allen, who told Gordon, who told Chris, who told another Mike. The second Mike rang the girl’s doorbell one day. He was from up the street and very rarely came down to her part of the ‘hood. But this day he came with an eager look on his face. With that eagerness in his voice, he told her that he knew what she found and wondered if she would take a couple bucks to let him look at one of those mags in the bathroom. “Sure,” she said. This carried on for every Saturday that her parents worked, for that entire summer. Those six boys, each paid a dollar, and one at a time [came] in this girl’s bathroom for a few minutes while she waited outside with the other boys. She never had to scrounge for pizza money again!
True story. Lesson of said true story? Hide your porn, if you choose to keep it.
Ok, now that I told you that story I will answer more about the topic. My belief that porn becomes bad–or unhealthy–if it’s done without the consent of a parter, if it causes strife, or if it costs a lot of money ultimately taking food out of your mouth. But, if a couple is open, talks, and understands that it’s just being used as a little stimulant, then I see no harm.
I probably view more porn that Michael, that includes read porn (like erotic fiction). Why do I do it? I don’t know, I guess I’ve been drinking pornographic coffee, so-to-speak, for a long time now and it’s just something I do. I’m probably in the minority here, so this is where I shut up.
*whistles*
Comment by Dad of Divas on 2 July 2008:
I can still remember having some magazines when I was a teenager and hiding them, only to find one day that my hiding spot was not too hidden… and that my grandmother (while cleaning my room - as she put it). Found the magazine and made me throw away all of the magazines or inform my parents of the material… Needless to say I got rid of them (at that point to my dismay). That was something of a turning point for me…I never had porn magazines after that. In college even though there were fraternity brothers of mine that would go to strip clubs, I never found myself interested in it. I like Jeremy, remember being enthralled with Real Sex on HBO with my wife, but that has been about it….for me that is…maybe I live a too dull existence, but I think that for some of us guys - we simply don’t need this…especially if the relationship with our wife is a strong one!
Comment by pete on 2 July 2008:
“I view porn as the 3rd string quarterback. He may not be your star player, but he’ll always be ready and willing to throw the ball.”
LMAO! I really don’t know how to follow that act. That’s e-mail signature quote-worthy material right there, Jim.
petes latest discovery was..Wordless Wednesday 25
Comment by BusyDad on 2 July 2008:
@SecretAgentMama I’m glad I didn’t know you then. You would have drained my ice cream fund.
@pete
I may just find myself in Bartlett’s one day after all!
BusyDads latest discovery was..Rollin’ on tha Eastside… the Far Eastside
Comment by cory at agoodhusband on 2 July 2008:
I think Jeremy messaged me especially to get my feedback on this post just because he knew that my first reaction would be to spew forth hate filled, white hot rage at the topic because I’ve written and researched so much about it.
I have to say that I completely agree with Chuck. Porn is worse than most people imagine. It’s as addictive as heroin, and it destroys marriages. Any good that might come from the artificial stimulation that it provides is far outweighed by the destruction that it brings. All of the scientific research says so, and so does the experience of the three friends I have whose marriages were destroyed by porn.
Comment by Platypibri on 2 July 2008:
Yes, I have looked at porn. Few guys avoid it completely. So, I’ll try not to be too preachy. But here’s a few things I know from my experience and the experience of guys I know.
1) For most couples, sex is rarely like a porn film. However porn sets unrealistic expectations of what sex should be with two out comes, one the couple puts on an act each time in an attempt to conform to the porn image, or two the relationship is abandoned in pursuit of a porn-like experience.
2) In some extreme cases, consumption of porn can render a person unable to adequately respond to sexually to a real-life partner.
3) Porn is an ultimately unsatisfying experience that drives a person to more and greater porn experiences. Like drugs, they give this stuff away to get you hooked. And once you are, and unrestrained individual can wreak financial havoc chasing particular people or subjects across the web. And again, in extreme cases, this leads to consumption of deviant and illegal material.
4) Porn FREQUENTLY degrades and objectifies women. In fact, this is almost the point as these women exist only for a man’s visual and physical pleasure. This is a terrible lesson for our young men on the value of a woman (a simple sex object), and for our young women of what the can offer to society (that she has nothing of value but her youthful sexual body).
When you have a “porn encounter” that is a sexual experience that rightfully belonged to your partner that you have selfishly spent on yourself. I think at best, the risks of porn outweigh any potential “benefits” to a relationship.
Platypibris latest discovery was..Massively Multi-Tasking Offline Real Playing Game
Comment by Ashley on 2 July 2008:
Well…I’m shocked! I figured most of the boys would all be FOR porn. No worries BD, most of the guys I know not only love porn, they all wish they could be porn stars.
My whole take on it all…is that I hate secrets. Hate them. So, as long as hubs and I talk and are in agreement about things, we’re good. I think that porn…or anything (hell, even a golf club membership) could ruin your marriage. IF you let it. It’s not the porn, kids - that ruins marriages. It’s not the golf club memberships that keep you away. It’s people that ruin marriages.
And, in direct response to the original Q…I think “cheating” is relative. If you *feel* neglected or like you’re being cheated on…then things should change. It doesn’t really matter how society defines it (because you’ll get 20 different definitions) if society isn’t in your marriage. Ya know?
Feel free to lynch me now.
Ashleys latest discovery was..Coming soon to blogs near you.
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Comment by Chuck on 2 July 2008:
Thanks Cory! It’s early in the day yet but I was a bit concerned that I’d be alone on this island at the end of it. I’m in good company.
Chucks latest discovery was..Those things that shape you
Comment by Mr Lady on 2 July 2008:
Cory, I have been silently reading your posts on the subject. I do want to add that I think it can be as strong an addiction as booze or drugs, especially when you’re forced to hide it. I myself am not against it, but don’t love it. My husband, however, kind of lives in BD’s world. When I was looking for it, following his computer activities, etc, it got really out of hand. When we finally actually discussed it, (read, when I stopped being a raging bitch and he stopped being a complete total ass about it), when we honestly talked about it, the pressure sort of lifted. It’s still around, but in small doses that don’t bother me. The lying about it was ultimately my major concern, and that lead to it sort of replacing me for a while.
Mr Ladys latest discovery was..The Post in Which I Send You Elsewhere
Comment by Mr Lady on 2 July 2008:
Oh, and Chuck? I had to change my gravatar, just for you.
Mr Ladys latest discovery was..The Post in Which I Send You Elsewhere
Comment by Quirkee James on 2 July 2008:
Porn, huh? I’ve never been a big fan but that doesn’t mean I haven’t seen it. It kind of gets old after a while. It’s just the same thing over and over and over. And quite frankly, I’ve never seen a porn star that was THAT attractive. They all look pretty tired and strung out.
But, if a couple is down with porn to spice things up a bit under the covers then who cares? That’s none of anybody’s business. I agree with Chuck that porn can destroy lives and that is an unfortunate outcome for those who can’t handle it, just like alcohol. The problem lies more in the individual than the industry itself, IMO.
Comment by NukeDad on 2 July 2008:
“…you’ll spend alot more time explaining how pieces fit together than you anticipated.” Oh, BusyD, you’ll be receiving a bill from my Doctor for side-splitting repair. My lungs hurt.
NukeDads latest discovery was..Coming Soon To A Theatre Near You…Maybe
Comment by Mr Lady on 2 July 2008:
(Says, darnit. My thing isn’t changing. It really needs to.)
Mr Ladys latest discovery was..The Post in Which I Send You Elsewhere
Comment by Kim on 2 July 2008:
I am sitting quietly in the corner reading the responses. Taking it all in and wondering if I should even post my comment on my view of porn. I mean I am now the “mom” that flirts. HA.
But I will share, because the reason for this series is to open some dialogue on the topic. So here it goes… stone me after okay?
I don’t mind porn, I have watched it with my partner and I enjoyed it. I see nothing wrong with it. It can add a level of “spice” to initiate intimacy. But I also agree with Quirkee’s comment. It gets old, quickly. It is not something we pop in every day; hell even once in six months is giving it far too much credit. The point is that it does not bother because I have not had a reason to have it bother me.
However, a problem would arise if my partner was hiding his attraction to porn. Then, I may take a completely different view on the topic… But for now, I use the phrase “no harm, no foul”.
Kims latest discovery was..Not Wordless Wednesday At All - Dork Evolution
Comment by Jeremy on 2 July 2008:
Seems like three common themes are coming up here: 1. personal accountability for telling the truth to your partner; 2. moderation is key in anything in life, whether it’s alcohol, golf or porn; and, 3. everyone has experienced pornography to one degree or another in life, but not everyone agrees on how much of it is acceptable, healthy, dangerous or even entertaining.
Several people have mentioned how porn has destroyed marriages of people they know. To me, I agree with Ashley - it’s not the porn that destroys relationships, it’s the people themselves. We have free will to choose our actions, and choosing to hide something significant from your spouse or partner will always catch up with you in the end.
Comment by Leslie Poston on 2 July 2008:
It isn’t the porn that kills a relationship. It is secrets, lies, jealousy and neglect. I like porn, and erotica. I have a Suicide Girls membership and a PlayBoy subscription. Sometimes the person I’m with and I seek out things on YouPorn and RedTube and such to spice things up a bit. Garden variety porn is not a big deal. (There are some kinds of porn that ARE a big deal, but that is for another thread entirely titled something like “Should Your Kiddie Porn Watching Spouse Go to Jail Or Get Tarred and Feathered?”)
HIDING porn is a big deal. Keeping secrets, no matter what kind of secret is a big deal. If you do something you then think you can’t share with your partner, then you should not have done that something, whatever it was. Cheating can even be conversation, if you have intimate conversations with another that you feel you can’t have with a partner. The key to any relationship is absolute openness and honesty and not punishing the partner for being honest. If you husband is willing to talk to you about watching porn, even if you don’t like it, he shouldn’t ever be punished for that honesty. That’s when you slow your roll a little and step back and reevaluate your own position. Try and clarify what bothers you about it. Then TELL HIM. Mind readers are so rare these days.
Working together, honesty, they all trump a little mindless nudity and sex any day. Granted, I may be a lot more comfortable with the whole idea of porn than a lot of women, but that doesn’t mean there isn’t a middle ground for everyone.
(bgwewriter on the buzz)
Leslie Postons latest discovery was..Cool News From Mercedes Benz
Comment by cory huff on 2 July 2008:
What those who say it’s not porn destroying marriage don’t understand is that it’s like saying the drugs aren’t destroying the marriage.
A drug addict is definitely at fault for their addiction. They made the choice to participate in that activity. However, after a certain tipping point, the addiction takes over and people look for more and more stimulation. They have to go for harder and harder material. The addiction will also drive people to act out in ways that they wouldn’t have before because watching is no longer enough, they now need further stimulation.
In clinical studies, pornography has been linked to child abuse, sexual disfunction including impotence, and rape. Many men in jail for rape have reported using pornography to stimulate themselves before acting out their violent fantasies, and even the ones who didn’t reported regular pornography use.
Again, there is no good that comes from pornography use, and a great deal of bad.
Comment by Matt on 2 July 2008:
How many people out there have daughters? Show of hands? Here’s the thing about porn. I used to like it, just like (most) other guys. I ran across some playboys in junior high in some woods behind my friend’s house (we accidentally burned down the entire forest because of them…but thats another story altogether). We thought they were terrific. It was pretty harmless at the time.
But then I became older, and I became a father of a beautiful little girl. Let me tell you. That changes your perspective. I have always steered clear of strip clubs because they make me uncomfortable. I can’t help thinking about what the girls’ lives are like and whether or not they REALLY want to be doing what they’re doing. Same thing now with porn. When I see an an image or a scene, I know that the girl doing all of those crazy things is someone’s daughter and it actually makes me feel awful. There is no possible way I can find it “engaging” after making that connection in my mind.
Matts latest discovery was..Top Ten Tips for Encouraging Your Toddler To Go In Her Diaper.
Comment by Christine @ Serenity How? on 2 July 2008:
Everyone’s comments have been really interesting. I’m glad to see an honest discussion going on about this.
I know not everyone who views porn will become addicted in the same way not everyone who tries drugs or alcohol will get hooked. Acknowledging that it’s possible though is key. Because of it’s addictive nature/potential, like BD said it’s important to keep it away from kids, whose minds and bodies are still developing. Unfortunately, that’s getting harder to do but it’s not hopeless either.
A lot of other good points have been made so I won’t comment further on them. I would like to bring up another point that I don’t think has been made though. Most of the “mainstream” porn is made by consenting adults, but there’s a huge industry made up of crime and underage…well…children. It’s as shady and ugly as the illegal drug industry - maybe more so. I’m not saying Playboy is backed by criminal activity, but much beyond that I don’t know where the line begins and ends. I just wanted to put that out there.
I also wanted to say that if your wife says she’s down with it, try to make sure she really means it and isn’t just trying to be a good wife, cool wife, whatever. Some women are fine with it, and some take it personally and wonder why they’re not enough. Everyone’s different. Once you know for sure, well, you’re all grownups here.
Christine @ Serenity How?s latest discovery was..I Interrupt This Break with an Important Announcement
Comment by BusyDad on 2 July 2008:
@Matt I think you hit the nail on the head there. If I had a daughter, I might see it an entirely different way. (Not that I do not respect women!! I just see porn as an entirely different realm, entered into BY CHOICE BY ADULTS by all involved.)
BusyDads latest discovery was..Rollin’ on tha Eastside… the Far Eastside
Comment by Jeremy on 2 July 2008:
I am really impressed with the honest and genuine conversation happening about this topic. It is another one of those issues that definitely has a right and wrong element, but then as I said about flirting yesterday, a gray area in the middle (although that area might be much smaller with this than flirting).
I respect and appreciate that there are strong views on this subject, and I think everyone has acknowledged the potentially harmful effects pornography can have on both an individual and relationship.
I still think, though, that people make a lot of excuses for why something other than themselves is to blame for their problems. It’s a personal choice to buy pornography, and there is personal accountability that goes along with that. We could try and ban all temptations from society to protect us from ourselves, but I don’t think anyone can say the Prohibition era was a success.
Just my opinion.
Comment by Jared on 2 July 2008:
@BusyDad: Degenerate here. (Raising hand slowly)
Most of the guys I know enjoy porn/strip clubs every now and then too…I don’t think it is a big deal.
Instead of repeating everything that @Ashley said, I’ll just say that I agree 100% with what she said…
It isn’t porn that ruins marriages, it’s the people in the marriage that ruin the marriage.
IMO, there is nothing wrong with anything as long as it is used in moderation (and I supposed not illegal, immoral, or hurtful to others).
If it interferes with your or your families normal everyday life, then it is not healthy and time to scale back a bit…if not totally.
Jareds latest discovery was..Little Man In A Big World
Comment by Chuck on 2 July 2008:
@Matt - AMEN! Dads of daughters have to see this whole topic in a different light. They have to. Did I mention I have 3 daughters?
While I can tolerate the “porn doesn’t ruin relationships, people ruin relationships” argument at which point IS the pusher to blame, or at which point does the pusher get nailed with a dose of accountability for getting a kid hooked on heroin? Never? None? Really?
Chucks latest discovery was..Those things that shape you
Comment by BusyDad on 2 July 2008:
@ashley: well put. cheating is in the eye of the cheatee. getting everything out in the open and establishing boundaries does wonders for any relationship. I can ruin a relationship without the help of porn or flirting. I’m an expert at that in fact.
@chuck: I hope you still talk to me after this!
@nukedad: I owe you some 50 cent beers. And no, that scenario has NEVER happened, thank goodness.
@kim: thank you for directing SOME of the disapproving glances away from me.
@christine: good point. I only watch FDA approved grade A porn (and really, it’s so seldom it’s more like a novelty at this point, but I do like it)
@jeremy: this series is either going to get me ostracized or gain me some real fans. no middle ground here… Then again, why do anything if you can’t go all out?
@Jared: whew! right on.
BusyDads latest discovery was..Rollin’ on tha Eastside… the Far Eastside
Comment by Mr Lady on 2 July 2008:
@ashley: For being a youngin’, I sure think you’ve got this subject well in hand.
@Jared: I have actually given my husband a stack of ones and sent him to strip clubs. Because I like him looking a boobs? No. Because I approve of objectifying women? Certainly not. Because occasionally, I think it’s good for him to go out with his single friends and pretend, just for one night, that he’s got no wife and 3 kids to feed, no staff to manage, no bills and mortages to pay? Absolutely. I get to go out and listen to goth music in smokey clubs occasionally, and he gets to be a college guy sometimes. Maybe that’s wrong, but it keeps up sane and less gray.
@ the idea of the people, not the issues, ruining the marriage: My marriage has got through EVERY CONCEIVABLE ringer. Really, it’s a miracle we’re still married, and still alive for that matter. Every oholic-ism that has hit us has hit us hard, but in the end, we are still together because WE found a way around it. Vodka damn near destroyed us, porn sure did, too. There’s more, but my point is that porn did not vanish, vodka did not run out, we just worked and worked and worked at it. We could have let those things ruin us, but we didn’t. So yes, I totally agree that it’s the people, not the substance.
I want to clarify that sometimes, it’s not worth trying to save, that sometimes, the addictions take over. Sometimes, too much harm is done. I am just referring to my own very personal experience, that’s all.
Mr Ladys latest discovery was..The Post in Which I Send You Elsewhere
Comment by Mr Lady on 2 July 2008:
And also, I said this in my comment on flirting, and I’ll add it here. I don’t do anything I wouldn’t do in front of my man, and I expect the same courtesy extended to me. If he wants to peek at the occasional playboy, he better well be comfortable with me knowing about it. That’s all.
Mr Ladys latest discovery was..The Post in Which I Send You Elsewhere
Comment by Chuck on 2 July 2008:
@BusyDad - Are you kidding! If I went through life not talking with people that don’t agree with me it would be pretty boring indeed, oh… and quiet (mmmmmmm quiet).
You clearly have the popular vote. I should be more concerned with you talking to me….
Comment by Rudy on 2 July 2008:
Jeremy,
I think you summed it up nicely:
IMHO, it can’t be any simpler than that.
Rudys latest discovery was..Lunch Bits - Edition 18
Comment by Jeremy on 2 July 2008:
Chuck - who do you think should hold peddlers accountable? I agree with you that they should be held accountable, and if they break the law, then I understand that there should be a legal/government mechanism that kicks in. But, what other accountability do you mean? Personally, I feel like I hold accountability over vendors of any product by controlling my own purse strings, as well as the recommendations (positive or negative) I make to people within my sphere of influence. Beyond that, though, I’m not sure what else can or should be done for legal activities (whether they are moral or not)? I’m definitely interested in hearing more from you and others on this specific point of accountability.
Comment by Mr Lady on 2 July 2008:
Accountability? Personal. Period.
Mr Ladys latest discovery was..The Post in Which I Send You Elsewhere
Comment by Jared on 2 July 2008:
Chuck said:
I think they key word here is “KID”. I am completely opposed to purposely targeting porn, drugs, or any other “adult activity” onto children. This is completely wrong and I think that anyone caught doing this should be punished to the extreme!
There is a reason you must be 18 to rent or buy XXX movies, go to the strip club, be an exotic dancer, or be in an adult movie, etc etc. Maturity…
I think at around 18-21 years of age a person is usually mature enough to make their own decisions…and learn from their mistakes.
Now, I’m not saying that everyone is mature enough. There are plenty of adults who will get obsessed/addicted and let it ruin their lives, but then again I don’t think you should take something away from everyone because a minority can’t control themselves.
I agree with Jeremy and Mr Lady…every adult is accountable for his/her actions…no matter what.
Kids on the other hand…that is a totally different story…
Jareds latest discovery was..Little Man In A Big World
Comment by Mr Lady on 2 July 2008:
Oh, yeah, I catch you pushing anything but dental floss and broccoli on a kid, and you’ll see me on the evening news.
Mr Ladys latest discovery was..The Post in Which I Send You Elsewhere
Comment by Chuck on 2 July 2008:
@Jeremy -
Personal accountability, of course. Everyone should be held accountable for their own actions. We (the full collective) also hold others (individuals and entities) accountable all the time whether they (those being held accountable) believe they should be or not.
I guess I’m just saying that while we can sit here and place the accountability squarely on individuals for becoming entangled in any addictive device, to the point of ruin, it should also be contemplated whether or not the industry, or local peddler, that provided the addictive device should also be held accountable. This is with the understanding that they knew the damage that could result.
Like you said, if the law has been broken then the law can deal with it. Beyond that I think they (the industry or peddler) deserve to own some blame for (in this case) the broken marriage or relationship. Does this mean they should have to settle in court for ruining someones marriage? I don’t think so, but for the people involved they can place some blame on that industry or peddler but not to the point of excusing their own actions. I hope that makes some sense. I never thought about putting this in some written form before.
At the end of the day our society does not promote the idea of one being accountable, for even their own actions, unless there are legal ramifications. This is a whole different problem.
Chucks latest discovery was..Those things that shape you
Comment by BusyDad on 2 July 2008:
I’m just jumping on to lend a “HEAR HEAR” to Mr Lady and Jared. I am all for doing absolutely doing everything we can (including getting medieval on some asses) to protect children. HOWEVER, I strongly believe that everyone, once grown, should take (and be given) full responsibility for their own lives - both the good and the bad. If you get hooked on drugs - your fault. If you let porn ruin your marriage - your fault. If you get struck by lightning playing golf in the rain - your fault. If you take $500 and turn it into a billion dollar enterprise - your props.
BusyDads latest discovery was..Rollin’ on tha Eastside… the Far Eastside
Comment by Chuck on 2 July 2008:
@Jared and Mr Lady - I think we can all agree that if kids are someplace in the scenario any of us would be seen on the local news.
Reading through the comments many folks have shared an introduction to porn that started with a magazine or two when they were kids. What about those kids who 20 years later become responsible adults and find their marriage a wreck because of an addiction that started when they were children? I’m just talking out loud here….
Comment by Velvet Verbosity on 2 July 2008:
Whoa. I followed a link from Secret Agent Mama because I heard y’all were discussing porn. I’m impressed with everyone’s honesty here! I applaud you all for bringing this up, for talking about it, and for keeping it light. I apologize profusely in advance if I’m crashing the party with a grim reaper outfit on. For some reason, I’ve thought long and hard about this topic. Mostly because I was exposed to it pretty early, and while like Secret Agent Mama, there was kind of a good feeling, there were all these other feelings too. In fact, one of the predominant feelings was one of fear. Was this was what was expected of me as a woman? I didn’t want to grow up.
The times in my life when this topic came up, the message was pretty much always the same. It’s kind of a guy’s right, all guys do it, it’s no big deal, it’s harmless. From women I would get the, “as long as he’s coming home to me, I don’t love it but I don’t mind it.” What bothered me in hearing these explanations was that they didn’t seem to dive any deeper than the surface. Everyone was just kind of going along with the status quo, but I always felt there was more. (For one thing, most women who SAID they were ok with porn or strippers would get that glazed over look when they said it…you know, kind of like brain-washed people…)
I think when people discuss issues like pornorgraphy (or gangsta rap, or violent movies, or whatever) there are a lot of underlying issues that make it a sensitive topic. There are issues of morality which is relative, and of course fear of censorship, judgement, punishment and so on. Where would we draw the line? Who gets to decide? To really get to the meat of such an issue though, we have to put that aside. When we consider whether something is harmful, we can easily dismiss this idea because there isn’t an immediate and direct correlation. Like someone here said, “no harm, no foul”. But to really unravel whether or not something like porn is harmful, you have to peel back the layers and follow all the tendrils.
Does a guy watch a rape fantasy and then go out and rape a woman? No. However, studies have shown that after men watch any kind of porn they exhibit a more lenient attitude in the sentencing of rapists. That’s just any normal guy. So, is pornography harmful?
Does a woman watch porn or know that her man is viewing porn and immediately become a porn star or a neurotic mess? No. But the general and pervasive (in fact transparent because it is so pervasive) display of beautiful, thin, and seemingly willing to do anything women has a cumulative effect on the psyche and well-being of many young women AND MEN. Consider that eating disorders do not exist in countries without westernized media. Or consider that rape and violence toward women is virtually non-existent in cultures where women are seen as sexual equals. If we fool ourselves into believing that our culture sees women as sexual equals (hey, they get to watch porn too!), just turn on the television or look at your porn. Men are the aggressors, and women the submissive in the majority of movies, advertisements, and CERTAINLY in porn. Porn is male fantasy centric.
The dads here who have daughters have nailed it. Their love for their own daughters has opened their eyes to the subtle nuances of harm inherent in porn and the entire sex industry as a whole. If anyone really wants to know how they deep down feel about porn, simply imagine your daughter, sister, dear friend, or mother becoming a porn star. If it’s not something you would want for your daughter, why not? If it is harmless? Men and women should ask themselves this question and really sit with it for a while before they decide if they think pornography is harmless.
Few other quick points I want to make. Most female porn stars or even amateur one-timers have been victims of sexual abuse or rape. So are they really consenting? There is a high rate of drug and alchohol abuse among female porn stars and strippers. So are they really having fun at their job? Porn stars have gotten out of the industry and talked about how they were mistreated, abused, and often in pain during shoots. Consenting? Having fun?
Briefly touching on addiction, anyone ever heard of the Skinner Box? Computer, stimulation, little clicky lever, each click rewarding the dopamine pathway with stimulation increasing…hmmm.
Finally, really awesome book on the topic is Pornified. Non-judgemental, non-religious, and just good honest writing.
I think if anyone in this thread is gonna get lynched, it’s going to be me.
Velvet Verbositys latest discovery was..Little Ant
Comment by Jeremy on 2 July 2008:
It would be interesting to see if a class action lawsuit would hold up against the pornography industry if filed by a large enough group of complainants. Similar to what happened with big tobacco. Should that level of accountability apply to this situation?
I agree that society (at least in the U.S.) encourages the blame game and a lack of personal accountability.
BD - you had me until the lightning bro
(but I don’t play a lot of golf either, so…)
Comment by Mr Lady on 2 July 2008:
@Chuck, maybe those children, when becoming adults, could choose to not let it ruin there marriage? Most kids are also addicted to candy as children, but get their first dental bill and lay off. It’s jsut simply being an adult, I think.
The first time I saw a porn mag, I was around 8. I hated it then, I still do. And I wouldn’t blame Hugh for that; I’d blame my disgusting horndog cousin.
Mr Ladys latest discovery was..The Post in Which I Send You Elsewhere
Comment by Mr Lady on 2 July 2008:
I also think I am commenting too much.
I also think VV hit on a few excellent points. Porn is detached, desensitized, not personal. Once you add “personal” to it, the whole concept shifts. Hence the whole having a daughter bit. Now that I think about it, the porn in Chez Shannon really did taper off to almost non-existent after my daughter was born. You make a really good point.
I don’t know if I totally agree with the theory of adults not being actually consenting due to childhood trauma. I made it through every sort of childhood trauma and never once touched a drug or became a porn star. But, again, that’s just me, not everyone. Even still, I thank VV for her comments. I won’t lynch you, dude.
Mr Ladys latest discovery was..The Post in Which I Send You Elsewhere
Comment by Angie @ Keep Believing on 2 July 2008:
Wow. This was fascinating. Really.
I am answering this as a girl, but I am still answering.
I have issues with porn for my own moral/religious/ethical views - the biggest one being that I think it promotes a very dangerous and promiscuous (sp?) lifestyle with all kinds of extramarital or pre-marital physical involvement. Now, not that I was any innocent littel thing in my late teens and early 20’s, but I certainly wish I could change a few things because some of those encounters out of marrige lead to a lot of hurt, rejection and self-esteem issues. So, my issue with porn is it promotes a lifestyle I have left behind.
It also promotes a lifestyle that I want my children to shun. I think it is a sad industry and I would be DEVASTATED if my children were to become porn stars. I think I have to have a strong stance and opinion on any industry or profession that I feel that way about… how would I feel if this were my child? I don’t think I could say to my child… honey, I am glad you are a porn star and I hope you are finding all your happiness in life. I could say that about garbage collecting, window cleaning and many other things, but I couldn’t say it about porn. Could you? Honestly?
Angie @ Keep Believings latest discovery was..A man in uniform - WW
Comment by Velvet Verbosity on 2 July 2008:
Mr. Lady called me dude. I can die happy now.
On the issue of consent, on the conventional level of course they are consenting, and that’s what we tell ourselves so we can sleep at night. On a deeper level however, while they are consenting, they have not yet unraveled their own wounds and so what they are consenting to is called into question. Essentially, what we are watching for pleasure is someone else’s disease.
Velvet Verbositys latest discovery was..Little Ant
Comment by hubs on 2 July 2008:
http://www.divinecaroline.com/article/22081/39208
Comment by Christine @ Serenity How? on 2 July 2008:
@BusyDad Grade A approved *snort* How socially responsible. You never fail to crack me up.
@Mr. Lady “I also think I am commenting too much.” - In my mature opinion: NUH-UH. Keep on.
Christine @ Serenity How?s latest discovery was..I Interrupt This Break with an Important Announcement
Comment by cory huff on 2 July 2008:
I think a class action law suit would be an awesome idea. I’d join. Pornography producers hold at least as much accountability as Big Tobacco.
While it’s true that many people are exposed to things as children and then overcome it as adults (as I did with alcohol & drugs), some people are predisposed towards certain behaviors. Some people become alcoholics more easily than others. That doesn’t completely erase accountability, but being indoctrinated as a child certainly takes away some power of resistance to harmful behaviors.
I really dislike the idea of “every thing is okay as long as it doesn’t harm someone else.” Some things are just plain wrong. Moral relativism is rampant.
cory huffs latest discovery was..How Marriage Hurt My Social Life
Comment by Jeremy on 2 July 2008:
Angie - for me, the answer to your final question is no. I would be devastated to see either of my daughters in anything remotely related to porn.
Comment by Christine @ Serenity How? on 2 July 2008:
Seriously now, I have a related question for the guys. I’ve heard it said that since men tend to be more visual than women it can be hard to keep certain images out of your head once you’ve seen them. That’s been used as an argument against looking at pornographic material. Make any sense? Any truth to that?
Christine @ Serenity How?s latest discovery was..I Interrupt This Break with an Important Announcement
Comment by Christine @ Serenity How? on 2 July 2008:
Oh, and I have two little girls. I don’t think any decent parent of sound mind would EVER want their daughters involved in the porn industry. BTW, doesn’t Hugh Heffner’s daughter run Playboy? Weird.
Christine @ Serenity How?s latest discovery was..I Interrupt This Break with an Important Announcement
Comment by Jeremy on 2 July 2008:
Cory - your comments also make me think about the cyclical patterns of behaviors that are learned from one generation to the next. It takes people with serious strength of character, much like you and Mr Lady, to overcome these situations and make a better life for yourselves and your families. Most people do not have the strength to do such heroic things. For those that don’t, though, I feel empathy but not sympathy - they still have a choice to have a better life for themselves. I don’t know the answer as to how to solve the cyclical problem, if someone did then I guess we could fix a lot issues in society, like divorce, murder, drug use and abuse. I just think that the solution needs to be more at the root cause, which for me is the individual. Does that mean I don’t support strict regulation of pornography, alcohol, drugs or weapons? No, but it does mean that I believe people are both the source of the problem and the solutions. Make sense?
Comment by BusyDad on 2 July 2008:
@christine - you are partly right about the visual thing. I know I don’t speak for everyone here (if my record of answers is any indication! haha), but it’s actually the opposite of what you say. Men CAN’T keep any visuals in their head so they NEED visual stimuli in front of them at all times. Again, speaking for myself. And by visual stimuli I don’t necessarily mean porn. I just mean something, anything visual that relates to the task at hand (and I am not just talking about sex). That is why men’s magazines have lots of pictures of stuff. I can’t imagine a cool car from just a description. I have to SEE it.
BusyDads latest discovery was..Rollin’ on tha Eastside… the Far Eastside
Comment by Velvet Verbosity on 2 July 2008:
And that is where I come to my final resting place with porn, strippers, prostitution, etc. If I don’t want my daughter OR MY SON making money by being a porn star, then how can I suspend this value in order to engage with pornography’s entertainment value?
Sex isn’t a dirty word. I don’t think people wanting to watch porn means they are automatically a sexu